Michael—you, William Wolfe, and crew are as subject to an ideology as some of the most progressive, mainline churches. While you look past (celebrate?) the gross immorality of the Republican Party and Trumpism, you have contented yourself by arguing that your ideology is somehow more “biblical.” But I would advise you to revisit your Bible. The words of Amos, for example, do not rest comfortably with American evangelicals or its false teachers.
False, you just proved his point! Lol.. Those scared to say anything due to loosing there bios are not standing on Christian principles. What happens if and when it gets worse. If you can not stand now what makes you think you will then. Jesus was murdered in the public square. Why because he was a threat to their power he refused to stay silent. The apostles most were killed in similar ways. Why because they would not conform. You may not like tbe style because the church has become impotent and comfortable and that has become the idol. Wake up, look around! Maybe you need to do some re reading. These men gave their lives you want to join the crowd and throw stones at one of the few men who stand up. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
I can assure you that what Michael Clary and William Wolfe are defending has little to do with old fashioned Christianity. American evangelicals are now a foreign mission field that needs to hear the Gospel of and about Jesus for the first time.
And I assure you, as a memeber of pastor Clarey's church we are brought the full counsel of God every Sunday. To make a quick judgement not knowing the man personally or his actual church is a huge mistake on your part. This church grows weekly and people are being brought into memeber ship and baptism. So you literally have no idea what you are talking about!! My husband and I have grown due to this pastors and other pastors at this church. What I see is a bunch of eny. This man, and few others attacked for actually addressing real issues while others sit on comfy pews and like to try to take logs out of everyone's eyes. You remember what the Bible says about that right.. Again if they did not want Christian in the public square they should not have murdered our savior there. Sounds like you drank the juice and are to consumed with pleasing man other than God.
You are attacking a man who is not an evanjelly. He is my pastor and bring gospel to bear evey single Sunday. When I grew up I was I. A different denomination. Pastor Clarey and the elders are men of God that always keep Jesus the main thing. Because it applies to all of life. You would have to hear his sermons and meet people of our growing church to know that.
These things happen both ways. There are plenty of conservative Christians who use these same techniques against those they call 'liberals', but are actually more historically orthodox than their 'Evangelical' accusers.
In a nutshell, "the church should focus on 'preaching the gospel.'" falls short of the mark. The church and Christians within it should LIVE the Gospel, using words to explain what they are doing.
I realise this is an opinion piece, so you are entitled to use whatever phrasing you choose. But that also means that readers can point out where your phrasing is inaccurate. So when you say 'They ('leftists') say the church should just “preach the gospel,” which is narrowly defined as preaching about God’s love, the death and resurrection of Jesus, and forgiveness of sins (without naming them)" I find that this is the opposite of the truth in my experience. I have found that those whom you call 'leftists' have a much broader vision of the Gospel. To them, it includes humans treating each other as in God's Image, rather than objects of God's Grace; it includes each person living out the Way of the Cross, sacrificially for others, rather than Prosperity Gospel, even if usually disguised; it involves more than being able to recite the catechism and expound the doctrines, but also understanding how the impact MODERN life as well as the times when they were first formulated. My personal experience is being shunned by a conservative denomination (which I had served in various positions for fifty years) because I became convinced on BIBLICAL grounds that their emphasis on 'Male Headship' was a contamination from the Late Roman Empire and maintained through male-dominated institutions since then. Paul himself makes it clear that there is equality, but it is wiser not to flaunt this in public in a patriarchal culture. Conservatives have long done precisely what you accuse 'progressives' of doing.
My point is not that your opinion piece is wrong, so much as it is unbalanced. There are truth-tellers right across the spectrum of human politics, art and cultures, just as there are control freaks scattered along that same spectrum. This opinion piece is trending towards the very flaw you are trying to correct; you are targeting those Christians who disagree with you rather than countering their specific ideas, and imputing these dishonest techniques you list as if they come from one side only.
Wow, you must live in upside down inside out world. I doubt any evanjelly can even tell you what a catechism is..lol.. I grew up in it,I had no idea. It was the come on up say this prayer," After sermons that had little to no scripture and were nothing but emotional manipulation..oh wait it didn't work, come on down again get rededicated..." let me ask Jesus into my heart. Do you accept Jesus?? ... ALL of which are NOT in the bible! Only one close is," HE FOKNEW US AND PREDESTINED US." Ephesians) What's that one verse I did learn as a kid?? Oh yeah, hide his word in my heart that I might not sin against you... so your " opinion" is know less??? Get the snuggly version of Jesus, one who does not adresses sin, again not supported by actual scripture. To make the yes, left ideologies more comfortable for YOU... I don't think so! So you feel better about abandoning scripture on marriage and the family cause you or your wife don't like it?? That is Marxist, feminist and no where supported by scripture. The left supports child sacrifice and cutting off our kids parts. Nope , sir your "opinion" is wrong and absolutely not backeup up by anything other than emotion and satan.
Thanks for that insight into... into... whomever you are talking about.
If an 'evanjelly' can't tell you what a cathechism is, then American 'evanjellies' are even more poorly educated than the Australian version.
It is also revealing that American 'evanjelly' sermons are short on Scripture but big on manipulation; but I had already guessed that. Australian evangelicals are precisely what that word means; based on the Evangel, or the Gospel. A typical evangelical sermon over here takes a passage or a theme from Scripture and explains what it meant to the first hearers, and then applies those principles to modern life. The 'evanjelly' refusal/inability to understand the Scriptures in their historical context as the stepping-off point for modern application is why American 'evangelical' thought is considered 'fundamentalist' throughout the rest of the world.
Nor do I come across too many 'snuggly Jesus' memes. As my original post says, God's Grace includes a call for each person to live out the Way of the Cross, sacrificially for others. The snuggly Jesus is an invention for infants, outgrown by puberty (except, it seems, in America).
Do I 'abandon Scripture on marriage'? No; I'm still married to the same woman who took pity on me 53 years ago; unlike that hero of the Religious Right in America, President Trump.
Am I 'Marxist, feminist'? No; I spent many years in a political party over here that started as a breakaway moderate wing of our main Conservative party. I actively support a market economy, subject to measures to ensure consumer protection. And 'feminist'? I respect women as my equal partners. In Genesis 1 God creates 'male and female', without any hierarchy; and in Genesis 2 where there is an 'order of Creation' the word used to describe Eve as 'helper' is the same used to describe YHWH as 'helper of Israel'. Hardly a subservient menial, but someone powerful to aid someone powerless by himself. Am I not Scriptural?
But even though I am NOT 'Left' by world standards, but Centrist, I feel obliged to defend 'the Left' against your false witness. I have yet to hear any Leftist politician in the West advocate child sacrifice, unless you mean leaving children with abusive parents in the name of 'Family Values' as many on the Right do too frequently. Nor have I heard any of them approve of 'cutting off kid's parts', unless you refer to surgical procedures approved and performed by registered medical practitioners. Or do you mean circumcision?
So I thank you for pointing out how poorly some Americans are served by their infantile fundamentalism. I suppose this is inevitable in a culture that relies on simplistic Revivalism that passes through for a month every generation, rather than on constant, educated, personalised pastoral care year upon year.
Thank you, Michael, this was very useful.
Michael—you, William Wolfe, and crew are as subject to an ideology as some of the most progressive, mainline churches. While you look past (celebrate?) the gross immorality of the Republican Party and Trumpism, you have contented yourself by arguing that your ideology is somehow more “biblical.” But I would advise you to revisit your Bible. The words of Amos, for example, do not rest comfortably with American evangelicals or its false teachers.
False, you just proved his point! Lol.. Those scared to say anything due to loosing there bios are not standing on Christian principles. What happens if and when it gets worse. If you can not stand now what makes you think you will then. Jesus was murdered in the public square. Why because he was a threat to their power he refused to stay silent. The apostles most were killed in similar ways. Why because they would not conform. You may not like tbe style because the church has become impotent and comfortable and that has become the idol. Wake up, look around! Maybe you need to do some re reading. These men gave their lives you want to join the crowd and throw stones at one of the few men who stand up. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
I can assure you that what Michael Clary and William Wolfe are defending has little to do with old fashioned Christianity. American evangelicals are now a foreign mission field that needs to hear the Gospel of and about Jesus for the first time.
And I assure you, as a memeber of pastor Clarey's church we are brought the full counsel of God every Sunday. To make a quick judgement not knowing the man personally or his actual church is a huge mistake on your part. This church grows weekly and people are being brought into memeber ship and baptism. So you literally have no idea what you are talking about!! My husband and I have grown due to this pastors and other pastors at this church. What I see is a bunch of eny. This man, and few others attacked for actually addressing real issues while others sit on comfy pews and like to try to take logs out of everyone's eyes. You remember what the Bible says about that right.. Again if they did not want Christian in the public square they should not have murdered our savior there. Sounds like you drank the juice and are to consumed with pleasing man other than God.
Farewell. I do not serve man, but the crucified and risen Jesus.
You are attacking a man who is not an evanjelly. He is my pastor and bring gospel to bear evey single Sunday. When I grew up I was I. A different denomination. Pastor Clarey and the elders are men of God that always keep Jesus the main thing. Because it applies to all of life. You would have to hear his sermons and meet people of our growing church to know that.
Hello Michael,
These things happen both ways. There are plenty of conservative Christians who use these same techniques against those they call 'liberals', but are actually more historically orthodox than their 'Evangelical' accusers.
In a nutshell, "the church should focus on 'preaching the gospel.'" falls short of the mark. The church and Christians within it should LIVE the Gospel, using words to explain what they are doing.
I realise this is an opinion piece, so you are entitled to use whatever phrasing you choose. But that also means that readers can point out where your phrasing is inaccurate. So when you say 'They ('leftists') say the church should just “preach the gospel,” which is narrowly defined as preaching about God’s love, the death and resurrection of Jesus, and forgiveness of sins (without naming them)" I find that this is the opposite of the truth in my experience. I have found that those whom you call 'leftists' have a much broader vision of the Gospel. To them, it includes humans treating each other as in God's Image, rather than objects of God's Grace; it includes each person living out the Way of the Cross, sacrificially for others, rather than Prosperity Gospel, even if usually disguised; it involves more than being able to recite the catechism and expound the doctrines, but also understanding how the impact MODERN life as well as the times when they were first formulated. My personal experience is being shunned by a conservative denomination (which I had served in various positions for fifty years) because I became convinced on BIBLICAL grounds that their emphasis on 'Male Headship' was a contamination from the Late Roman Empire and maintained through male-dominated institutions since then. Paul himself makes it clear that there is equality, but it is wiser not to flaunt this in public in a patriarchal culture. Conservatives have long done precisely what you accuse 'progressives' of doing.
My point is not that your opinion piece is wrong, so much as it is unbalanced. There are truth-tellers right across the spectrum of human politics, art and cultures, just as there are control freaks scattered along that same spectrum. This opinion piece is trending towards the very flaw you are trying to correct; you are targeting those Christians who disagree with you rather than countering their specific ideas, and imputing these dishonest techniques you list as if they come from one side only.
Wow, you must live in upside down inside out world. I doubt any evanjelly can even tell you what a catechism is..lol.. I grew up in it,I had no idea. It was the come on up say this prayer," After sermons that had little to no scripture and were nothing but emotional manipulation..oh wait it didn't work, come on down again get rededicated..." let me ask Jesus into my heart. Do you accept Jesus?? ... ALL of which are NOT in the bible! Only one close is," HE FOKNEW US AND PREDESTINED US." Ephesians) What's that one verse I did learn as a kid?? Oh yeah, hide his word in my heart that I might not sin against you... so your " opinion" is know less??? Get the snuggly version of Jesus, one who does not adresses sin, again not supported by actual scripture. To make the yes, left ideologies more comfortable for YOU... I don't think so! So you feel better about abandoning scripture on marriage and the family cause you or your wife don't like it?? That is Marxist, feminist and no where supported by scripture. The left supports child sacrifice and cutting off our kids parts. Nope , sir your "opinion" is wrong and absolutely not backeup up by anything other than emotion and satan.
Mrs. Reformed,
Thanks for that insight into... into... whomever you are talking about.
If an 'evanjelly' can't tell you what a cathechism is, then American 'evanjellies' are even more poorly educated than the Australian version.
It is also revealing that American 'evanjelly' sermons are short on Scripture but big on manipulation; but I had already guessed that. Australian evangelicals are precisely what that word means; based on the Evangel, or the Gospel. A typical evangelical sermon over here takes a passage or a theme from Scripture and explains what it meant to the first hearers, and then applies those principles to modern life. The 'evanjelly' refusal/inability to understand the Scriptures in their historical context as the stepping-off point for modern application is why American 'evangelical' thought is considered 'fundamentalist' throughout the rest of the world.
Nor do I come across too many 'snuggly Jesus' memes. As my original post says, God's Grace includes a call for each person to live out the Way of the Cross, sacrificially for others. The snuggly Jesus is an invention for infants, outgrown by puberty (except, it seems, in America).
Do I 'abandon Scripture on marriage'? No; I'm still married to the same woman who took pity on me 53 years ago; unlike that hero of the Religious Right in America, President Trump.
Am I 'Marxist, feminist'? No; I spent many years in a political party over here that started as a breakaway moderate wing of our main Conservative party. I actively support a market economy, subject to measures to ensure consumer protection. And 'feminist'? I respect women as my equal partners. In Genesis 1 God creates 'male and female', without any hierarchy; and in Genesis 2 where there is an 'order of Creation' the word used to describe Eve as 'helper' is the same used to describe YHWH as 'helper of Israel'. Hardly a subservient menial, but someone powerful to aid someone powerless by himself. Am I not Scriptural?
But even though I am NOT 'Left' by world standards, but Centrist, I feel obliged to defend 'the Left' against your false witness. I have yet to hear any Leftist politician in the West advocate child sacrifice, unless you mean leaving children with abusive parents in the name of 'Family Values' as many on the Right do too frequently. Nor have I heard any of them approve of 'cutting off kid's parts', unless you refer to surgical procedures approved and performed by registered medical practitioners. Or do you mean circumcision?
So I thank you for pointing out how poorly some Americans are served by their infantile fundamentalism. I suppose this is inevitable in a culture that relies on simplistic Revivalism that passes through for a month every generation, rather than on constant, educated, personalised pastoral care year upon year.